Interesting. Is it happening in Tremont? Are the "master planners" working on a plan to turn Tremont into Legacy Village? (shuder) Beats me they aren't talking to us.

What I do know is that if one goes back and looks at past plans for the neighborhood, there are nice bound color copies available at the Tremont public library for viewing on site, there exists a general call for less density and more public green space. e.g. New construction on the alleys was to be discouraged. I've an adobe pdf file copy of the most recent plan if Adam is interested in posting it here unfortunately it is in black and white.

Personally I'd be more concerned about the whole thing toppling over under it's own weight and the "gentry" suddenly feeling trapped. Unlike NY, you hit the $300,000+ level in north east Ohio there are a lot of choices. Not to mention the plans to build a brand spankin new Uber Urban 'hood on the east bank of the flats.

If you send me the PDF, I'd be happy to post it, TCJ.

Tremont Master Plan 2001 [4MB PDF]

No Adam,
after reading the article on the gentrification of Williamsburg, I can't see any paralells with Tremont. Actually, I can't even think of one Cleveland neighborhood that is experiencing, much less suffering from gentrification. I think the "loyal reader" has a very active imagination to be able to honestly look at Tremont and somehow equate the small pockets of new construction on mostly vacant parcels with the mass upheavals suffered in New York and Boston. Median home values are still dropping in northern ohio, generally not the signs of gentrification.

TJC: Page 25 actually recommends alley access for new housing developments. The master plan you posted still seems like a valid document for Tremont to follow. The overlook at the reiver seems like it would be a good thing.

Tremont will ultimately benefit from the East Bank redevelopment. At some point some of the apartment dwellers and condo owners will want their own yards, and nearby parks and playgrounds, and their own garage for their cars, and some real coffee shops instead the the Seattle kind, and want to live in a real place in the city with some history instead of some ersatz Potemkin Village. I think Tremont will be that real place.
g

aren't they rebuilding the projects?

Hope VI- I think that you are referring to the Hope VI development that is under construction in the southeast corner of Tremont. Although this is a government funded build, I think that it would be unfair to call it a "the projects".
Where 339 units once stood we will now have 190 mixed use/income properties. In this new development we will have 95 public housing units, 33 tax credit units and 65 market rate units. Additionally there will be 27 new homes for sale. These new homes will be Starkweather Place, the new construction project referenced in a different thread.
More information, including plans, can be found at TWDC.

Chris Merry
Howard Hanna Smythe Cramer

government funded, government housing, whatever. Mixed income housing places a financial caste system as to who will live there. These are all just colorful words to sugarcoat the obvious... these are projects.

KEYWORD: "HOPE"

We all HOPE it will not destroy the neighborhood again.

Shame on all of you who allowed this to come back!! You will be the ones selling your houses if things get bad. Those of us who have lived here before will live here after and deal with your mess.

NO sh*t. SMART observation. TO point understandable IF combo tax credits,etc.etc.BUT. SERIOUSLY. HOW many Yups gonna have? HOW much corporate,etc.etc.took off,etc.etc. Yeah We offering ALLLLLLLL kinds of 'deals'across the board from 1001 NGOs,etc.etc.BUT.....BE REAL % to checkout ACTUAL backgrounds, demographics, biz,etc.etc.of THIS crew TO actually see if 'demand'.....Whut 2Yups move in together. Subprimelending stuff. PAST $s from PAST "Bubbles" of whutever 'stripe',etc. ? ? MEDICAL, MIlitary related BIG draws....Grant u got some names around here let alone Clev.Clinic (CAN zip up the shoreway and work waaaaaaay dooown BUT....) STILL got LOT of " Homies n Hoodies" runnin round here........Maybe part of the voyeurastic whutever 'appeal'..........BUT how many of the "Yups" only have $2 in their wallet, "Contacts", hopes,et.etc.SUPRISED BANKS into this. Ok ' 77 Community Reinv.Act. STILL. DEMOGRAPHICS. I PERSONALLY would NOT want to be HANGIN out there if the (*&^%$#@!~ hit the fan. Power struggles, bankruptcy (corporate,other,etc.etc.), illness,etc.etc. TO GET YOOOOOOOOUrrrrrrrrrrr $$$$$$$$$ OUT of it have to WAIT X years......PAY $500M PLUS 16 years out for THAT WHERE........HATE to be like that. NICE hood or can be BUT.........Whut waitin for rest of wrecks to fall doooownnn...X%# shot, jailed, Rehab, move, military, Underground econ, Freakonomics, etc............LOT of the new biz is this funky off beat stuff see in a PlainDealer madehere@plaind.com MAYBE I am full of it BUT.......CAN see a 'programmer' able to garner $20 PLUS AN Hour or more BUT.....HOW much downsizing, mergers, outsourcing, etc.etc. Let alone IndiaRising, etc. Whut hopin to snag overflow biz from the coasts, sell LakeErie water, windturbines our version of EnronDoneRight..........????????

Good points. When did Mark E. Smith start posting on here?

hmmmm

This master plan is so far flung it will never come to realization. At best, Tremont will go sideways into the future. Go to Trulia.com, zoom in on the tremont area, you can look at recent property sales as well as property records for some addresses. Recent property sales for the year show virtually all the sales occurred in the $30K to $160 K range. None of those big new townhomes for sale have sold all year. And what happens when the tax abatement ends nobody will buy these homes. They have open house weekend after weekend for this new construction, but I think the average joe realizes that paying $300K + to live in Cleveland is completely silly. Yes I can see paying $300K to $500K for an apt or condo in other cities because you have that density, diversity, urban ameneties, choice of restaurants, access to public transportation, nightlife, women, job opportunities and what not. There are some good food places in Tremont but it lacks the density, activity, convenience (good grocery store, gym, etc), and biggest of all Clevleand has little job growth, so why would someone pay that much money to live in Tremont when you could pay much cheaper and live the same by renting or buying at the $150K level and be confident that you will actually be able to sell your home in the future. Plus public safety is non-existent in Cleveland. Go to Chicago, Pittsburgh, Charlotte, or other city. Police stop people on the street that look suspicious. People in Pittsburgh get pulled over you are guaranteed they will search your car with the dogs no matter how small the traffic violation. Cleveland police are lax and don't stop anyone for minor infractions and don't bring the dogs out everytime they stop someone so people get away with whatever they want.

Dan,
I'd be a little more careful where you get your facts. Trulia, although amusing, isn't exactly the best source of accurate information. Any Realtor who has access to our local multiple listing service could tell you that there are currently 4 pending sales for the new construction in our area. Additionally there have been over 10 townhomes that have sold in the past year. Often, when the sale is builder to buyer these "auxillary sites" do not pick up on the sale.
And yes it would be nice to have a gym, grocery etc. but we are a contained community. Where would you suggest these structures go? There is talk of a new organic style market where the old Brown's market was- that's pretty exciting.
I think that your observation regarding public safety is interesting. Although I hae been to chicago a number of times I am not intimately aware of what happens when wou get pulled over. As for Pittsburgh- I grew up there and my family is still there. Police presence may be strong, but look at the downtown development. There is none. I guess what i am trying to say is that it is unfair to compare cities like they are apples at a fruit stand.
Tremont remains to be one of the best place to live in Cleveland. Contrary to the rumblings and misguided media, the Real Estate market remains strong. The tax abatement is a huge asset. These abatements have not only brought new buyers to the city, but they have been a huge asset in keeping the market moving. They are designed to serve a temporary purpose, to help build and stabilize a neighborhood . We have seen many abatements expire in Ohio City and the resale of these homes has remained strong.
If you would like more information on the particular sales that I referenced let me know. I'd rather not publish them at the cost of offending the owners sense of privacy.

Chris Merry

DanSpiderman - Meet me for a beer at ArtWalk this Friday and let's talk about how you can get involved in the neighborhood. I am a transplant to Tremont from Chicago and Indianapolis, two cities with wonderful urban living that developed similarly to the way Tremont did and is. There is nothing better to help improve our neighborhood than views from folks who have seen it work in other cities. My email is katallava@gmail.com.

Just a note to the comment above, development in downtown Pittsburgh has picked up dramatically over the last two years and is set to eclipse Cleveland's downtown population. There are many projects actually in progress vs only a few in progress in Cleveland. All of Penn ave has been filled in with Condos, apts, art galleries, museums, lounges, and theater. Go any night of the week and there are people everywhere now in that area. If you go to the fifth and forbes area, pnc is bulding a new tower, and the remnants of all the old haggard shops at fifth and forbes are gone. New restaurants (such as the capital grille steakhouse) and shops are opening up in this area. In the liberty ave area, the African American museum is under construction. Pretty much every part of downtown pittsburgh has been filled up with some sort of residential, commercial or cultural structure.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=100544

Look at downtown Cleveland and it is still mostly empty space. Even with Stark's proposed developement and the east bank, there is still a lot of dead zone in downtown cleveland and vacant structures smattered all over the place from public square to the east.

To be honest, where downtown cleveland may have had the upper hand 4 years ago, it certainly does not anymore.

Spiderman hit the nail on the head. Excellent observations all the way around. The only way to get rid of the thugs in Cleveland is to get rid of the cops--and start from scratch. The laziness, ambivilence and ineptitude of the Cleveland Police Department is shocking. Be careful if you call them and they actually show up to take a report-- as often as not, they'll be pissed off and snippy with YOU because you caused them to get up off their lazy asses and made them work (if you can call it that).
SUCKY COPS = SUCKY CITY = Theiveland, Ohio

KM,
There is no point in us meeting, because only one thing needs to happen to start change in these neighborhoods and that is to fix the police. The number one reason people dont' live in Cleveland by far is hte perception of public safety. I've never seen such a non-existent police force anywhere I've lived. No matter how much we share ideas, its not going to change the way police and gov't operate here. You can add all the art galleries, restaurants, events in Lincoln Park, and anything else you want, but nothing will change for the better until public safety is addressed.

I'm sure there are tons of people bitching at these block club meetings i see in the tremonter, but nothing changes. Adding myself to the mix will not change the way the police operate.

Part of it is probably a utilization problem (they are not using each police member to their utmost ability), part of it is probably the percentage of time the police spend in the field is probably low, part of it is cultural problem (its easier to write tickets, do traffic duty, and do bar duty in the warehoues district than to investigate real crime).

I would recommend disbanding the CPD and hiring a private security firm (probably at the same cost!).

I couldn't agree with you more.
I've lived in the Second District for 8 years and I have seen their callousness. I've called for various reasons - people shooting guns out of cars at bicylists (driving past them repeatedly); 14 years olds throwing bottle rockets at 4 yr olds on the playground; drug dealing and I always feel like I am the nuisance.
Our nieghbors busted a guy breaking into 6 cars - caught him in the act and at great risk to themselves restrained him for 20 minutes until the cops finally came. They let him out 2 hours later with a misdemeanor charge.
Just last weekend three different people on three separate ocassions were jumped walking home from West 25th Street Market area (at night). I have not seen a beefed up patrol.
The worst thing is - no one (CDCs) wants to bring it into an open forum because it will hurt real estate values.
Its ludricrous.

DanSpiderman,

You said - "No matter how much we share ideas, its not going to change the way police and gov't operate here."

I say - I think you are wrong. Getting involved is not only about sharing ideas, it is about putting ideas into practice. Part of that is affecting the way the police interact with the neighborhood. Another part of that is coming up with creative ideas to deal with problems that the neighborhood faces. In effect, getting invovled in the neighborhood makes you/us part of the gov't.

It is too easy to sit on the sidelines and surmise that someone has to do something. Be that someone.

I will be at Prosperity at around 6:30.

You know what KM, I hate to disagree with your idealism but Dan is correct.
After my unpleasant experiences with the Second District, in particular the car burglar incident, I went to my Councilman's office. I was told to go to my Block Club.
I went to my Block Club and was lied to by the Safety Officer (told it was the prosecutor who let the guy out on a misdemeanor - at 3AM) and sent to the Second District cheerleading meeting held the second tuesday of every month at Jone's Home.
I went to the Second District cheerleading meeting and after politely but insistently asking for accountability on the issue was told to shut up, sit down and accused of "grand standing" (no, I'm not running for a political office).
The message was clear and firm - "Shut up and deal with it."
I can tell you I had many, many people come up to me after the meeting and express their frustration at having to deal with similar situations.
Hey, Maybe the new Commissioner will make a difference.
Meanwhile, residents are getting mugged left and right and our cops are out running around issuing traffic citations.

Sorry KM, but I don't think anything we say will change the way an entire police force operates. I'm sure its been tried many times. We all know what needs done, its not rocket science- a 5th grader knows what needs to be done, its just that the implementation is impossible.
And Debra, yes I see what you are saying about tickets. I see them doing radar on the lorain bridge all the time and all over the place, and wander why criminals get to run around loose all over cleveland. Besides, I've never encountered anywhere else where traffic in general (not because of rush hour) moves so slowy. If the speed limit is 60, you think they'd go 70 (in Charlotte sp limit is 70 but traffic moves 75-80 which is really nice)). but not in Cleveland they actually go slower than the speed limit, like 50 mph in many cases, and in the left lane which drives me nuts. I always enjoy crossing into the PA border because traffic moves faster overall and they move out of the left lane right away. There are so many accidents in NEO not because of speed but because people aren't paying attn to what they are doing and putzin in the left lane. This place drives me nuts!

Dear Debra - I agree with you that it is unacceptable that a known car thief is allowed to walk out of jail the same day with a misdemeanor. Is sitting behind your keyboard disagreeing with my idealism going to change the situation? Is going to the Second District meeting and demanding accountability going to change it? The answer to the former is definitely no. While you may disagree, the answer to the latter is probably no as well.

My sense is that if you had gone to the councilman, block club, or second district meeting and instead asked what you might do to change the way the city deals with those facts, you might have had a better experience. Demanding accountability does nothing more than try to assign blame. Trying to effect a change is a different approach, and is very likely to meet with a different response.

Frankly, and I don't want to go into attack mode here, but in my opinion, going to the second district meeting and demanding accountability actually hurts Tremont's ability to get more police presence here. It makes us look like we just want our problems solved, but we don't want to do anything to help solve them. Cleveland is a big city with big city problems and any interaction we have with the police needs to account for the practical realities of what the police deal with. While I don't pretend to know the inner workings of the city, my sense is that there are a limited amount of resources to deal with criminals. And when there are things like murder/rape/armed burglary going on, the car thieves sometimes slip through the cracks.

If you want the system to change in the way it deals with car thieves, then work to effect a change. In point of fact, the more people in the neighborhood that are working to effect a change, the more likely things will change. TWDC has a Safety Committee; go to those meetings and suggest things that can be done that would change the outcome if the same facts occur again. There is a group of residents who go to court when there are hearings involving people who commit crimes in Tremont; join that group.

Dan thinks there should be more police presence in Tremont. You think that the police/courts/prosecutors (or whomever makes those decisions) shouldn't be letting car thieves out of jail the same day with misdemeanors. I agree with both of you and my sense is that the whole neighborhood does too. So help us do something about it. Get involved. If you want to know how, feel free to join me and Dan for a beer before ArtWalk tomorrow night. At that time, I can share with you my story that involves what I found to be an extremely responsive police force, including the new commander.

Dear Dan – Cleveland is a big city with big city problems, one of which is lack of money. While I don't pretend to know the inner workings of the city, my sense is that those speeding tickets generate revenue that helps keep police officers on the street, doing the types of things that you think a police force should be doing. Your assumption that the police are choosing to write speeding tickets instead of choosing to address criminal activity is somewhat silly. Would you go into your kids' school during a bake sale and complain that they should instead be spending that time educating your children?

I agree with you that it is not rocket science—if you want more police on the street, then either find a way to impress upon the Second District leadership that Tremont has a need that justifies taking police from other neighborhoods, or find a way to get more funding so there can be more police available for all neighborhoods. Frankly, getting more funding may be the easier course here. If we all think that Tremont is wonderful on its own and that we no longer need the tax abatements (ducking) to entice home buyers, then maybe we should tell the city we will give those back (ducking even further) to fund additional officers in the neighborhood.

While not rocket science, sometimes brainstorming creative solutions to difficult problems is what is needed, and whether the neighborhood is successful in solving problems depends in large part on the quality and quantity of people willing to help. From your first post, I got the impression that you were someone who was willing to get involved to help Tremont become more like the other cities you mentioned. For whatever reason, you didn't seem like some of the rest of the people who post here just to hear themselves complain. Was I right or wrong?

KM, I think we just have major philosophical differences.

Your idea of kindly suggesting to the police to do their job is (in my opinion) highly ineffectual. I did present to the committee in a calm and constructive fashion. Their response was to talk our of the side of their mouth. That is when I asked for accountability.

My choice of response was externally directed. I was doing what was recommended by my councilman and then my block club. I was doing what any average citizen would do and has done. Point - many average citizens have done this and have come away very discouraged.

BTW, I also believed in disciplining my children while they were growing up - which is why they are responsible adults today - they were accountable for their behavior.

I assure you I am a highly responsible resident. I own a home over the gulley(W.29th), though I lived in Tremont for 6 years before and I frequent Tremont. Believe me, I do much more than sit behind my keyboard. And I disagree that sitting behind my keyboard won't change things - it most certainly does. Not only does it inform, it creates dialogue. I think you would agree that dialogue is essential.

My complaint with your situation is (forgive my crassness here, but its the most accurate analogy that comes to mind) CDC employees often behave as used car salesmen. "Oh, that little crack on the engine block - no! thats just cosmetic." Its this driving desire to sell a neighborhood at almost any cost, and things like the fact we have lousy police protection are minimized or glossed over.

The oddity of this is that CDCs are entirely funded by us citizens, with our tax dollars, and were created for the very purpose of handling the very issues of which Dan and I complain. They were not meant to be promotional units, but were meant to create community equity and stability. Responsive police protection is an essential element of stability.

Let me tell you another dismaying but !TRUE! story. I had the unpleasant chore this summer of dealing with two very large, very aggressive pit bulls chained inside a van parked for 8 hours or more at a time in front of my home (we live curbside). This situation went on for over three months. During the arduous process of dealing with this situation (repeated calls to APL, City Kennel, Councilman, 2nd District) my neighbor, who was housing their owners, threatened me. I called the police to have a report made of the threat. The officers arrived and attempted to persuade me that there was no point in them talking to my neighbor or writing a report, because "the judge isn't going to do anything about it anyway. it will just get thrown out."
After several patient attempts to explain to the officers that prosecution was not my goal, merely deterence and to create a record, god forbid anything come of the threat, I finally had to let the bitch out of the house, reveal my educational background, explain to them their job duty and demand they do it. I can only suggest to you my level of exasperation.
Now - am I going to bang my head against a wall and try to "follow up" with a complaint about the officers behavior....i don't thINk so. I've already been schooled as to the result of that futile behavior...
I'd love to meet for a beer, but I've organized the "to masumi" show at doubting thomas and I am needed there.
peace-
d'bra

I'm not talking specific to Tremont here, but the problem is that in Cleveland we try to assign our problems to everyone- CDCs, judges, police, everyone. But the minute it becomes everyone's problem, it becomes no one's problem. In the example you stated above, the judge could have take ownership but didn't.

But Dan - we pay police officers and grant them the right to detain, the right to search with reasonable cause, we arm them with weaponry, and we provide them with training and information not generally available to ordinary citizenry.
We grant judges the right to detain someone for extanded periods of time and to revoke individual rights.
We give CDC's the responsibility to work in the best interest of all citizenry, not just the over-priviledged. They have the sometimes onerous task of not just promoting and developing a particular area, but also stabilizing and improving the lives of those that live there with a mind to equity.
We pay all these people with our tax dollars.
So, while we all have the responsibility to maintain safe neighborhoods (I myself have chased crack dealers off my street three times - let them shoot an old lady) it is also true that certain individuals, groups and organizations have higher levels of responsibility and are paid everyday to do that.
My impression of many CDCs in areas that are gentrifying is that they are more focused on promotion and development and prefer to sweep issues regarding stability and equity under the carpet because they affect promotion and development negatively. I don't feel this is right, given the purpose of their funding.
Its also an attitude and practice doomed to fail because our areas are without adequate police patrol and people who have a mind to commit criminal acts are well aware of this.
And YES it IS the responsibility of the CDCs, police, politicians and judges to keep our neighborhoods safe - WHAT ELSE IS THEIR JOB????

Let me start of saying I am a Cleveland Police Officer. I am proud of what I do. I see a lot of griping about the police. I agree there are a huge amount of problems with the department. I also recognize that there are good officers in this district who want to help. What I don't see is the fact no one here seems to realize we are fighting an uphill battle...

1. We are constantly scrutinized by the city for doing our jobs. Examining our moves for weeks for decisions we had moments to make.
2. We are undermanned. We work 6 day work weeks, usually unable to request time off, allowing us little to no time with our families.
3. Then the citizens of Cleveland get on bulletin board sites and call us thieves, liars, crooks, lazy, and any other idea that pops into their head.

I can hear the responses now. If you don't like it leave, no one put a gun to your head to take the job.

The bottom line is I know people are frustrated. A lot of us are too. If you want to help, help. If you want to gripe, hey have at it. A lot of us have developed thick skins.

My email is off-duty@hotmail.com anything you send is confidential. If you have names, addresses, plate numbers, or information send it to me. I can't guarantee to stop all your problems, but we can start.

Thank you for your time. I hope to hear from you.

Off-Duty - I apologize - you're right some of the cops really do care and I know all of you are working on thin ice bUT - some of the cops really are apathetic and that creates a huge amount of frustration for residents.
But, its not just the cops, as I said above, and my chief complaint is that eveyone who is in a position of responsibility (professional - personal is another issue) seems to be in a deep state of denial.
Take Mayor Jackson, for instance...have you read his 72/52/22 points of light plan? wHAt are we going to do with a $5million cat catching operation? FIVE MILLION DOLLARS????????? why is no one saying anything about this insanity? It makes our city look idiotic. We're going to require cat owners to microchip their cats but we can't keep our minors off the streets and out of trouble and we sure as heck can't educate them.
I mean, I appreciate Jackson's attempt to streamline safety operations, but maybe a period of escalating crime is not the time to do it. It seems Jackson is in a bicker pattern with the police union and we are the ones paying the price (though we'll see if he doesn't extract his due come election time).
It just makes my head spin.
Anyway - Thanks for still caring Off-Duty. I've worked in short staffed situations for extended periods of time and it is very difficult to maintain a positive attitude and not sink into apathy, no matter how conscientious you are.